Friday, November 16, 2018

What's Wrong With Irresistible Grace? Why?







Irresistible Grace - Is It Biblical?

Question: Irresistible Grace - is it biblical? Can you explain to me why irresistible grace is wrong?

Answer: Greetings in Jesus wonderful name!

The doctrine of irresistible grace refers to the biblical truth that whatever God decrees to happen will inevitably come to pass, even in the salvation of individuals against their own free will and choice. In other words, this has mainly been associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ.

Irresistible grace is not Biblical and wrong as we cannot make a case to support it because God has clearly revealed in His word that He,
"desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim 2:3-4), "The Lord is not slow about his promise [of His coming again to this earth to judge and rule it with His saints], as some think of slowness [of fulfillment], but is patient with [all humans including us], not wanting any [humans to] perish, but all to come to repentance." (2 Pet 3:9), and further God continues saying, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all [(i.e.) humans]." (Tit 2:11). In other words, this shows that grace of God has been dispersed to all humans through the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the past two thousand years, and God waits for a response from humans in reply to the grace that has been dispersed in all the world. Every good choice of humans to accept the grace of God will bring salvation to them and their household (Acts 16:30-31).

Here are the verses that prove that God is looking for man to choose the right and reject sin to be saved,
"...choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served [or] ...the Lord" (Jos 24:15), "if the wicked turn away from all their sins...they shall surely live; they shall not die..." (Ezek 18:21-22) "all who received [Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior of their life], who believed in his name, [God] gave power to [them to] become children of God." (John 1:12) and above all there is a promise from God to all humans that says, "If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom 10:9). So what do we understand from the above Scriptures that speak to us, if we don't respond to God's promises or continue to believe Him through faith, we won't be saved. But if any human will respond and follow through in faith, any one can be saved.

When someone who even calls him 'Lord, Lord..' and can resist the grace of God against doing the will of the Heavenly Father to not to get saved
(Matt 7:21), when at the time of the end anyone can become cold because of the increase of lawlessness, which can show to them that they were never saved as they fail to endure to the end (Matt 24:12-13), and that any believer can get disqualified in the race of faith to lose their eternal reward anytime if they themselves do not practice what they preach to others (1 Cor 9:26-27), then we can only come to the conclusion that grace can be resisted and there is nothing that can be called as 'irresistible grace'. God's salvation grace is available to all, anyone who receives the grace of God through faith will be saved at the end. Those who fail to receive grace will resist grace and therefore will remain unsaved.

For how could a good loving God who want the whole world to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), and have sent his son to die for the whole world (John 3:16), but ultimately only select certain, elect few by irresistible grace when He Himself calls by election all humans and pleads with them to choose the Gospel and reject one self to become saved and live in friendship with Him for eternity ahead
(2 Cor 5:19-20)? All of the above truth cannot go in the same direction, until they all agree that God does not work without man, man cannot work without God. Thus only when both God and humans work together, people get saved and people are also saved through them and their testimony for Him, nothing is impossible to us humans when we are in partnership with Him (Luke 1:37; Matt 19:26).

When people respond to God's drawing towards Him through the Gospel by the Holy Spirit, it is the grace of God extended towards those unsaved by God that get utilized without wasting it in vain. But when an unsaved resist the Gospel without responding to God's initiation, the grace of God is wasted towards him or her
(1 Cor 15:10). Yes, Father God “has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into” His kingdom (Colossians 1:13). Or, as Psalm 3:8 puts it, “Salvation belongs to the Lord,” but how can someone be saved unless people are sent to preach the message, and the people who hear believe the report of the Lord's messengers and believe the message of the Gospel which builds faith in them to save them from sin and death (Rom 10:14-18)?

Natural man is
“dead in his trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1; Ephesians 2:5; Colossians 2:13), and, because humans are spiritually dead, he must first hear the Gospel and respond to it in order to be made alive or regenerated and not vice versa. Lazarus being raised from the dead cannot be compared with a unsaved man being converted, because Lazarus was already a saved man who died physically because of some sickness (John 11:24), it was a pre-demonstration of how the Lord himself will raise Himself from the dead and also other believers who will be raised in the times to come to be made alive for the Glory of God (John 11:25-27).

The greatest problem with Calvin and the proponents of irresistible grace is that, none of them has concentrated on the message of the proclamation of the Gospel, that is why they bent themselves to thrown their weight on God's sovereignty and have washed their hands of human responsibility, unlike the first century apostles who went on preaching and teaching the word of God in all the world demonstrating the Kingdom of God so that all people in all the world might be able to believe the Gospel and be saved for eternity
(Mark 16:15-18, 19-20). If the great apostle Paul who was used by God to bring millions and millions of souls in to the Kingdom of God in the first century says with urgency, "Indeed, preaching the gospel is no reason for me to boast; it is an obligation that has been imposed upon me. And woe to me if I do not preach the gospel." (1 Cor 9:16), then we need to ask ourselves, why does he need to have the urgency to preach the Gospel if God is able to bring people forcefully in to His irresistible grace without the Gospel being preached? That shows the folly of such thinking that is unbiblical and wrong to mislead people in to a false sense of security and lethargy in fulfilling the great commission of the Lord (Mark 16:15; Matt 28:19-20). When we value the Gospel which looks foolish to the natural man (1 Cor 1:21-23), God saves us according to the promises He has given us in His word. In other words, if we choose God, we become God's chosen though we may be looked as though we are foolish from the side of the world, from God's side we have become wise in trusting Him and Jesus Christ becomes our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption from God (1 Cor 1:26-31). So God's election is a call to the whole world, of which those who chose God become chosen of God to be conformed to the image of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ (Rom 8:28, 29-30).

Though the secret thing of God's foreknowledge of who will be saved and who will not be saved is something that God knows already in His omniscience
(Deut 29:29; Matt 24:14, 36; Luke 21:24; Rom 11:25), only the revealed things belongs to us of which the Gospel of grace through faith is one among them that we may keep the covenant to which we are invited and rejoice to reap the blessing of God on earth as it is in heaven (Eph 2:8; Matt 26:26-30; Eph 1:3-4; Matt 6:10; 22:1-14). Let us not trespass in to the unknown territory of the mysteries of God and lose the blessing of the present in the know area to which we are called to experience.

The preaching of the Gospel through His messengers is not just a general call but a specific call through which God pleads with people to accept the gospel message that is preached, so that they can be saved. This specific call of God can be resisted and rejected to remain unsaved or accept it and be reconciled to God to be saved by Him, all those that receive the Gospel humbly by faith will be saved
(Matthew 22:14; Romans 1:18-32; 2 Cor 5:19-20). When Jesus speaks about the call of God in John 6:37-47, it is this call of the Gospel which He speaks about and not a surreal inward call other than this which is not mentioned in the Scripture. The certainty of this outward call for which people respond is seen in John 6:37: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me [by accepting the message of the Gospel to be saved], and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out [because of their inadequacies or weaknesses of sins or transgression due to the influence of iniquity against their new will from their new nature].” John 6:44 confirms this: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.” In other words, Jesus emphasizes that those who respond to the message of the Gospel are drawn by the Father God and therefore they will be saved to rise up in their new glorious body at the time of rapture or the last day. Gospel is the power of God to salvation, saving everyone who believes, apart from it, none can be saved (Rom 1:16; Acts 4:12)


Other verses like
2 Corinthians 4:1-6; Acts 13:48; Acts 16:14 and Romans 8:30 which are promoted as irresistible grace can be seen to be wrongly proclaimed, because it is not the 'whole counsel of God' as it does not contain both the goodness and severity of God in balance, rather while the goodness is speculated by those who preach irresistible grace, to repeat it again and again to make it to become another different gospel, the severity is hushed up to be kept as though it is not present at all (Acts 17:30-31; 20:27, 31; 24:25; Rom 2:4; 11:22-23). But the bottom line is, faith in God's goodness leads to repentance, unbelief in God's goodness or partial belief in goodness without severity leads to death and God's judgment without mercy. When God initiates his goodness through the Gospel, it is passed on through his messengers so that humans may respond to it by faith and receive the grace of God to get saved. When humans resists and reject the goodness of God by rejecting the Gospel message, severity of God is faced by them because of rejecting the goodness of God. This is the reason before the worldwide Tribulation starts and the time for the wrath of God of to be released from heaven comes, because of severe human resistance on earth against the proclamation of the Gospel, God will send a angel to finally proclaim the good news to the whole world one last time to make up their mind to either receive his goodness of salvation, or reject it to face his wrath so that none may say that they never were given the opportunity to get saved through the Gospel (Rev 14:6-7).

In
2 Corinthians 4:1-6, after explaining why some people do not believe the gospel (it is veiled to them and their minds have been blinded toward it), Paul writes, “For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:6), which clearly teaches us that without receiving the Gospel of Jesus Christ by our voluntary will and praying to God for salvation, light cannot shine in to our dark hearts (2 Cor 4:5). The difference between the day of creation and all that is in the earth (Gen 1:31), and the day of salvation in which he creates new creation for the world to come is that (2 Cor 5:17), all the creations were made for man in its own image (Gen 1:25), but human were made in the image of God for God with a free will to choose (Gen 1:26-27), and further after humans fell in to sin and rebellion against God, God made a way of faith to receive salvation and relationship with God back by their own choice, so that, that which was lost in the first Adam our forefather is restored to us back through receiving the light of the Gospel which shines in our heart through Christ Jesus the last Adam who has acted as Mediator and God's bridge to cross the river of death and bypass it altogether to live now in the power of the age to come by His mercies and grace (2 Cor 6:1-2; 4:4; Rom 5:17; 1 Cor 15:45; 1 Tim 2:5; John 11:26; Col 1:13-18; Heb 6:5). The God who said, “Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3) is the same God who gives the light of salvation to those who choose Him by receiving the Gospel now, and the result is that they become sure of salvation as the elect of God and chosen by Him before the foundation of the world as He was the one who wrote and sent the Gospel to them through his messengers knowing that they are in need of salvation and it is not them who sought Him first (Rom 3:9-18, 23; 2 Pet 1:19-21; 1 Pet 5:13; 2:5, 9). In other words, all those in need and poor in spirit (Matt 5:3), God will save them by sending His Gospel for His Glory (Luke 4:18; 6;20), so that they can become rich in faith and be saved from sin and eternal death (Jam 2:5)!

When Luke the writer and the first historian of the Church wrote in
Acts 13:48, “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed,” it does mean that God knew who were in need of salvation and were hungry for God's touch (Acts 15:18), even some without knowing that it was God they need, came and heard the Gospel by appointment of God (Isa 65:1; Rom 10:20), these were those who were appointed to eternal life and they believed the Gospel when it reached them, and no way there is any kind of irresistible grace involved in this verse to make it mean to be something different from what it conveys. Gospel hearing creates faith and saves people (Rom 10:17, 13-15).

Acts 16:14
, is not another example of God’s irresistible grace in action, but rather it is a demonstration of God's fore knowledge to know who is in need and who is not in need of the Gospel, just because God knows whom to save and at what time they are in need doesn't mean that He forces his will on those people, though outwardly it may seem like that to us. Say, God is the story writer and has called humans to participate in it as play actors by their free will of choice given to them, just because the story writer knows the story to act exactly according to the need of the actors, doesn't mean he forces them to act though he is the one who has given them a limited choice of either accepting or rejecting his type of voluntary participation, in favor for him or against him in the same story which He expects them to decide voluntarily and participate in the way He wants them to through believing the Gospel so that at the end of it in His pleasure He will reward them or judge them for their choice of life as He is the Creator who created them all for His own purpose and His pleasure and His Glory.

Finally as misconceived,
Romans 8:29-30 is not the call and a election of God for heaven as though humans are forced to accept Christ and men are dragged kicking and screaming into heaven, but rather it is a call to be conformed to the image of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ for which God requires a voluntary response and for that which He has promised to reward in eternity with Glory. The transforming power of the Holy Spirit whereby He takes a man dead in his trespasses and sins and gives him spiritual life so that he can recognize the surpassing value of God’s offer of salvation, does not come before hearing and accepting the Gospel of salvation but only after hearing and receiving it (Eph 1:13-14). Thus once after the man willingly comes to Christ by accepting the good news of the Gospel to get saved, then at that moment of salvation he is set free from the bondage of sin and death.

What God decrees or determines will come to pass. This truth is seen throughout Scripture. In Daniel 4:35, we see that
“He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand!” Psalm 115:3 declares, “Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.” The above does not mean God’s grace in salvation is irresistible, but rather the purpose of His salvation to humans is irresistible because it was His plan to save the humans who are affected by sin and who are in need for deliverance from it. As we know that God when he sets out to fulfill His sovereign purpose, no person or thing can successfully resist Him with their limited wisdom by rejecting the Gospel through which He has planned to fulfill His plans and purposes (Rom 9:19; 1 Cor 1:18, 19, 20, 21; Acts 17:27, 30-31, 34).

Thus what people wrongly call as the doctrine of irresistible grace does not accurately summarize what the Bible teaches about the nature of saving faith, because they magnify God's sovereignty and downplay man's responsibility to take a quality choice to accept the Gospel and reject man’s depraved nature of self and sin, rather it mixes the two and causes more confusion to people regarding salvation by grace through faith, to promote a surreal grace of God forcing Himself upon human heart to save them rather than humans seeking God to be saved which is the right way of salvation man is called to 
(Isa 45:22). God need to be trusted and we need to be tested, and irresistible grace teaches actually vice versa which is completely wrong and misconceived.

May God help us walk in the true grace of God that comes through the Gospel to transform our heart and be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ our Lord and not be deceived by the so called irresistible grace.

Much Blessings....





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Wednesday, November 14, 2018

Is Not God Forcing His Will On Humans By His Election?







Can Grace Be Resisted?

Question: Can grace be resisted? How can we relate the election of God with the condition of repentance of man to get saved, as both are needed, and yet God not to be forcing his will upon humans?

Answer: Greetings in Jesus wonderful name!

Not only grace can be resisted, but it can be wasted
(Rom 9:19; Exo 10:3;11:9; Jam 4:6; 2 Cor 6:1-2). When God smells pride, he knows beforehand that the grace of God will be wasted. Obedience to God not because of voluntary willing submission but because of forced submission because of the irresistible power of God displayed in resistance against one's pride, which He does to show forth His glory will shut the hand of the grace of God that has the power to save that same person from sin and death (Exo 14:17-18).

Yes, in a simple language of understanding to our limited capacity of brain, grace simplified is God's election received in repentance with humility in the heart, grace rejected is God's election resisted in pride with rebellion in the heart which will waste the grace of God. Grace exemplified is, God wants all to be saved from sin
(1 Tim 2:3-4), but at the end of it all only those who receive the Lord Jesus as their Savior and Lord of their lives in humility are saved (Acts 16:30-31; 2 Thess 3:2).

In other words, those who choose God will become Chosen by God, those who reject God will become vessels of dishonor
(Matt 22:14; 25:24, 25, 26-27, 28-30; Rom 9:16, 21). God is like a drama director who shows to all on the first show what it is like to experience the story he has designed, but that doesn't mean all those play actors on the stage are forced to take part to perform, rather by their own will and wishes they take part to fulfill the story in which God has decided in His will and in His time to finish it with a high note for all those who have willingly chosen to take part in it as volunteers by rewarding them. Others do the play with the motive of getting money for themselves, fame for themselves and a name for themselves and even some want to fulfill their own lust, these are unsaved vessels of dishonor who will become condemned by their own works. But those who partake in the play drama believing that the director will at the right time decide what to give and what not to give because of His goodness and grace (Matt 20:15-16), will end up becoming vessels of honor with salvation by their faith and will be rewarded by God for their voluntary work of love (Eph 2:8; Heb 6:10; Matt 19:29-30; 25:21, 23; Luke 19:17, 19). Just because the director know the end of the story does not mean that he influences his will upon people and forces them to do it the way he wants them like robots. Choices are given by God to all humans and people are invited to take part in God's election, but ultimately it is man who chooses the right or the wrong thing either by accepting God's way or his own way, to be saved from sin for heaven, or remain unsaved in sin for hell.

Grace is not a forceful violation of the will of the recipient, but rather a free gift of God that empowers a individuals will to bring a change that transforms their life without their own effort of keeping the law to please God. Irresistible grace is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ. But the name 'irresistible grace' is very much misleading people to make them think, that God's sovereignty is able to work without man's availability, that will be a violation of man's free will, but actually the fact of the matter is, God works in us and through us when we open ourselves for Him and co-operate with Him by asking Him and praying to Him to work by His grace and mercy. In other words, humans cannot save themselves from sin and death without God, God will not save any human without human cooperation in asking Him to save by their free will. But when it comes to God's children, God chastises them to build them more and more spiritually in to the image of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ which is His call towards them to get conformed and thus be transformed eternally
(Heb 12:6; Rom 8:29-30; 12:2). But the unbeliever whom God knows as elect in His foreknowledge is drawn supernaturally by his Holy Spirit and wooed to willingly seek for Him (John 6:44)

While Calvinists believe that you didn’t choose to be saved, God chose to save you. And since He chose you, you can’t lose your salvation. Arminians believe that anyone can choose to be saved, but since salvation is our choice we can, by our bad decision or wrong behavior, we can lose our salvation. The Bible does support neither Calvinism nor Arminianism, rather the Bible says God election is not dependent upon man's work but rather by His own grace, through which He has planned to save all those who choose His way rather than their own way
(Prov 14:12). God initiates, but man has to respond. The apostles who wrote the Scriptures believed that God's sovereign choice will get invoked to fulfillment in salvation only when man chooses what God has provided, then they believed that once man chooses what God provided for salvation in Christ Jesus, God takes over their lives to keep them in His way, truth and the life through what Jesus has completed for them to be kept safe for eternity ahead (John 14:6; 10:27-30; 19:30). So it is neither the left nor the right, but the center point between both Calvinism and Arminianism that truly gives us the right picture of the New Testament view point of election by grace and salvation through faith (Eph 2:8).

So grace can be resisted based on the response of humans to God's initiation of his goodness towards them
(1 Cor 15:10). Repentance in humility opens up God's hand of grace to give salvation to the humble. Resistance in pride closes God's hand of grace to deny salvation to the proud. In other words, even though grace is given by God for free, it is not cheap enough to be thrown away by Him for those who do not want it, because God paid the life of His only begotten Son to provide it all to those who need it, and ask Him in humility towards Him through their belief (John 3:16; 1 Cor 6:20), God saves only those who willingly come to Him in faith and humility. The election of God shows his concern for all humanity, the foreknowledge of who will be saved and who will not be saved shows his omniscience which is the all knowing ability that makes Him as God Almighty who can only save (Isa 43:11; Jer 32:27; Matt 19:25-26). Man's availability by his own choice to empty himself of his self and receive God's grace through faith shows human responsibility and accountability to the all powerful omnipotent God Almighty who calls all humans to repentance through election (Matt 4:17; John 3:3, 5; Luke 13:2-3; Rom 8:29-30). The ability of God to save all sinners and lead them heavenward towards Himself all the time, in all generations, and in His will shows the omnipresent [i.e. present everywhere] nature of God's availability always to show the Almighty nature of His ability to save any moment when humans are willing to come to Him in humility and faith (Matt 11:27, 28-30; Luke 15:1-7). God wants and desires to save all humans (1 Tim 2:3-4, 5-6; Ezek 18:20, 23, 24, 26-27), all the time, till the end of the world, but are the humans willing to hold on to God by faith to get saved (Luke 18:8)?



Much Blessings...




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Sunday, November 11, 2018

Does Gog-Magog War Has A First And A Second War, Or Just One War?







Is The Ezek 38-39 War And Gog-Magog War The Same Or Different?

Question: Ezek 38-39 and Gog-Magog war are not one and the same. The very fact is that after the Gog's war in Rev 20 it goes on to The Great White Throne judgement and then the New Heaven and the New Earth.

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Ezekiel 39:11-16 talks about burial grounds and burying for 7 yrs. There won't be a burial ground in the New Heaven and New Earth.

This talks about Burial for 7 months.

Ezekiel 39

"11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. 12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. 13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD. 14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search. 15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog. 16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land." (Ezek 39:11-16).

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Again Ezekiel war talks about using Gog's weapon and burning them like wood and not gathering any for 7 YEARS.

Ezekiel 39

"9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years: 10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD." (Ezek 39:9-10).

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Ezekiel 39:2 says in KJV that 1/6th the army goes back.

"And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel."

In Rev 20:9b it says fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That means NO SURVIOURS.

I can go on ad nauseam. We need to be careful when we divide the Word brother Abraham Israel. Like some say that there is no difference between Rapture and Second Coming, yet there is a huge difference.

If you compare Ezekiel 38-39 with Rev. 20:7-10 you’ll find they are not the same. Here are some examples. First, in Ezekiel 38 the attacking armies come primarily from the North and consist of several Middle Eastern nations. In Rev. 20 they come from all over the earth. Satan is not mentioned in Ezekiel 38 but is the commanding general in Rev. 20. God uses Ezekiel 38 to bring Israel back to Him (Ezekiel 39:22). In Rev. 20 Israel has been faithful to Him for 1,000 years. In Ezekiel 38 the dead are buried. In Rev. 20 they are devoured by fire. The chronology of Ezekiel places Ezekiel 38-39 before his description of the Millennium. The chronology of Rev. 20 places that battle at the end of the millennium.

Some scholars believe the use of the same names in both passages is to show that the people in Rev.20 have the same motivation as the ones in Ezekiel 38, the destruction of God’s people. Other than that, the two accounts are entirely different.

That means prince of Gog is the same as the Beast of the Revelation?

For a start, the Beast/Antichrist will come from EU and NOT Russia. Moreover you have not answered my question of 7 months of burying dead bodies and 7 yrs of burning wood.

People are confused about it and you are confusing them more. It is two separate wars and end of story.

Ezekiel war says specifically the nations Involved, Armageddon will be the whole world per se?

I am sorry I can't buy your theory. They are not the same. The Russian invasion/Ezekiel war has to take place before Antichrist comes on the world stage, so that EU can become the Last World Empire.

Since we can't agree on this, let us leave it at this.

Answer: Greetings in Jesus wonderful name!

You said, 'There are two Gog-Magog Wars--One prior to the Seven Years Tribulation and the other at the end of the Millennium Reign of Christ.'

I stand on the same wave length regarding Ezek 38-39 as Pre-Millennial, but only I differ and say that it happens at the time of Second Coming rather than before the Daniel's 70th week
(Dan 9:24, 26-27).

Armageddon happens at the time of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ our Lord to the earth to rule for a thousand years time, the last war mentioned in
Rev 20:8 is not the same like I explained in the first Gog-Magog war that happens at the time of the Second Coming which is waged by Satan against God through Antichrist. The second Gog-Magog war happens at the end of the Millennium rule of Jesus, and Satan at that time will use all the unsaved people of the earth to come against "the camp of the saints" living at that time and "the beloved city" of Jerusalem from where God and His living saints will be connected to all the believers all around the earth more closely than ever (Rev 20:8-9). So do not mix the two and get confused. I have given 50 reasons why Ezek 38-39 war to be one and the same Armageddon war that happens at the time of Jesus' Second Coming, if you can't believe then it is up to you. But dividing the Word of God, I have done by revelation (2 Tim 2:15).



What About Burial Of Dead Bodies And Burning Of Weapons In To Millennial Rule Of Jesus? 


What about the 7 months of Burial of dead bodies and Gog's weapons being burned like wood and not gathering wood for 7 YEARS of their existence as a nation?

Ezekiel 39:9
describes Israel burning the invading enemies weapons for seven years. Because the Gog-Magog battle will take place after the end of the Great Tribulation (Matt 24:29), the enemies weapons will be burned for 7 years in to the Millennium. At that time Messiah of Israel would be present in Israel to protect it and to judge the nations of the world. This is the reason the nation of Israel will not want to take and store the weapons as booty or spoils for future wars, but instead would choose to burn the weapons completely. This also reveals their confidence in their real Messiah Jesus Christ who will have by then saved them from the terrible and brutal clutches of the Assyrian Antichrist in this final war of Armageddon.

The next thing is, even though Jesus will provide to everyone’s needs, the curse will be partially lifted
(Is 11:6-10), and the earth also will be reformatted by earth quakes (Rev 6:12-14; 16:17-21), still as the Bible says Jesus will come and only help to raise up the tabernacle of David, repair its damages, raise up its ruins and rebuild it as in the days of old (Amos 9:11; Acts 15:16-17). It took many years as the history says to rebuild the tabernacle of David which was fully completed by Solomon (John 2:20; 1 Chron 16:1; 17:5-14; 29:1-9; 2 Chron 6:5-11; 7:1-11). Jesus did not promise a new temple for the Millennium pre-built in heaven, lowered and refitted on earth like the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven (Rev 21:1-3). In this way burning the weapons in the millennium is part of the work to rebuild the Millennium temple through the surviving saints of the Great Tribulation who will be in their natural bodies. These saints who will have survived and have come out of Great Tribulation will be allowed to live on earth in the Millennium to procreate and multiply the earth. Thus because the Messiah will rule the world with an iron rod, all the nations of the earth and Israel especially will destroy all their weapons completely trusting the supernatural power of the Messiah to protect them from any harm (Joel 3:16). This massive de-weaponisation program around the world will be implemented without fail by the Messiah (Isaiah 2:2-4; Rev 19:15; Isaiah 11:4).




Will There Be Survivors Of The Invading Army Left? 


What about the 1/6th the army goes back?

When you say,
Ezekiel 39:2 says in KJV that "1/6th the army goes back" by pointing to the verse which says in this translation, "And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel."

I can say that the 1611 first archaical words of Ezek 39:2 has not been accurately translated in its original context, it should be read like in proper place as translated by NKJV New King James Version which gives it a proper perspective by saying, "And I will turn you around and lead you on, bringing you up from the far north, and bring you against the mountains of Israel," which shows that it does not speak about any survivors of the war but rather about the event as a significant one of the end time Armageddon in which the northern army which is not a Russian one in its entirety but with a majority from Russia too that will be part of the (REU) Roman Europe Union coalition under Antichrist which will invade the mountains of Israel before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to this present earth. If you take a map of the world and see what is to the north of Jerusalem the heart beat of the end time events, it will be European Union rather than Russia which will only be a part of it at that time of the end. Russia which now acts as a nemesis for European disintegration and division will suddenly at that time of the end will become a part of it because of its catholic tradition of orthodoxy which is closer to its European root rather than communistic China or pantheistic Hinduism of India which will be the Kings from the east by raising its profile to new heights through its prominence through a world war 3 before the time of the end comes according to the prophecies given by the apostles and Jesus himself (Rev 16:12; 9:13-21; Matt 24:26-28).

So according to the prophecy from apostle John which is the last word from Jesus Christ, we see that those who die by the sword of the word of the mouth of Jesus will be a 100% at this time of Armageddon after the beast and the false prophet were first cast alive in to the lake of fire burning with brimstone (Rev 19:19-20; Eph 6:17). In other words, just like it is foretold in Ezek 38-39, the invading armies of Antichrist will be burnt supernaturally by the fire of brimstone's coming out of heaven through the command of Jesus, and will die on the spot to be taken in to Sheol the prison for the unsaved through angels of fire (Ezek 38:22-23; Psa 103:20; 104:4; Luke 16:22-23).

Even in Rev 20:9b it says fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them, because originally the second war of Gog-Magog will be the time when Satan who has been on rebellion against God and imprisoned for thousand years time will be released at that time for a very short time period through which he will cause a soulish rebellion in humans which will forever be annihilated through God's final judgment upon the sinful earth, God will destroy this present earth by burning everything in it through fire, so that all things material will become a vapor and in to non-existence except that which eternally cannot be shaken which are saved saints who lived through the Millennial rulership of Jesus (Heb 12:25-26, 27-28, 29). This time Satan will be judged forever by the saints before the White Throne Judgment of Christ will start and therefore will be thrown in to the lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever and ever (1 Cor 6:2-3; Rev 20:7-10). Hallelujah!

You need to understand that I am the one who brings out always the main difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ to convince people from the Scripture that  both are not the same and that Rapture can take place any time after Mid-Point but before Great Tribulation begins through Antichrist
.




What Are The Evidence Against Ezek 38-39 Not Being Armageddon? 


If you compare Ezekiel 38-39 with Rev. 20:7-10 you’ll find they are not the same, because I did not speak about the post-Millennial second Gog-Magog invasion but rather the pre-Millennial first Gog-Magog invasion which is also knows as Armageddon at the time of Jesus' Second Coming to this present earth.

There are more clear and Scriptural support for Ezek 38-39 being Armageddon and the last war before the Millennial reign of Jesus, than the evidences against it.

When you say, "First, in Ezekiel 38 the attacking armies come primarily from the North and consist of several Middle Eastern nations. In Rev. 20 they come from all over the earth", you are missing on the main point of note, which is, the war of Gog and Magog is not the war waged against individuals or even nations, it is the war of God towards Satan to prove that he is the initiator of rebellion in the heart of all people all over the world (Rev 20:1-3, 7-10), that is why Satan fights along with Antichrist and False Prophet as counterfeit Trinity to reveal his power against Jesus and his saints who are the true Trinity of God who will reveal the true Power of God which is what is the true essence of Armageddon will be (Rev 16:12-16; John 17:23; 14:23). The war which starts with the first war of Armageddon in the pre-Millennial rule of Jesus to prove to the world that Satan is the instigator of rebellion in the unsaved hearts of people, will only end at the time of post-Millennial rule of Jesus in which it will be proved to perfection through the act of releasing Satan from his Millennial prison to unleash him to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, to once again gather together the sinful man whose number will be as the sand of the sea, to come out and battle against God in open rebellion despite enjoying years of the life of God's goodness on earth during the Millennial rule of Jesus. 

Satan is not mentioned in Ezekiel 38 but is the commanding general in Rev. 20, in the same way Satan is not mentioned by name in Isa 14:12-21 and Ezek 28:1-19, but yet in the light of Rev 12:1-17 that the New Testament sheds, we come to know that those passages have in the past have spoken by imagery what has happened to Satan [(i.e.) who acted as the Lucifer - 'son of the morning'] and his angels who sided with him in rebellion against God to form a rebel group of darkness to hide themselves from the light of God's truth and Sovereign power and authority, and thus use it to fulfill their own agenda of pride and the plan of their evil leader. What do we learn from it? Old Testament message is the New Testament message hidden in a imagery, New Testament message from Jesus and his apostles is the Old Testament revealed and explained further to the full extent of our understanding for the Glory of God.

Yes God uses Ezekiel 38 to bring Israel back to Him, but we see that only at the time of Armageddon they look to his nailed hands and accept Him in repentance as their Savior who had died for them already to save them from sin and death which points Ezek 38 to be the same event of the final day of Armageddon (Zech 12:9-10-11; Ezekiel 39:22). In Rev. 20 Israel has been faithful to Him for 1,000 years which points to the work of the Spirit once given through grace of the Lord Jesus, sustains these Israelite's faithfully to follow the Lord Jesus Christ their Messiah who saved them from annihilation of the entire nation of Israel by Antichrist and his troops.

In Ezekiel 38 the dead are buried who have died by fire burnt partially or died by burn wounds and left as an example to people who see it so that they may fear the Lord and walk in submission to the Lord like in the days when Korah and his rebellious group became a sign to their times and the end time of how the Lord will make the rebellious die when they rebel against the authority of the Lord Jesus on earth (Num 26:10; 16:31-33; Rev 19:19-21). In Rev. 20 they are devoured by fire and burnt completely to become vapor as the whole earth will become in to that vaporous state (2 Peter 3:10-13; Rev 20:9-10).

The chronology of Ezekiel places Ezekiel 38-39 before his description of the Millennium. The chronology of Rev. 20 places that battle at the end of the millennium.

Not only what some scholars believe as the use of the same names in both passages is to show that the people in Rev.20 have the same motivation as the ones in Ezekiel 38 and the war is waged against the destruction of God’s people in both cases, are true and match exactly, moreover the two accounts are not entirely different but rather superficially different and essentially the same which starts at the beginning of the Millennial rule of Jesus in the first war of Gog-Magog described in Ezek 38-39 [i.e. Armageddon] and ends only in the second Gog-Magog war of Rev 20 when His Millennial rule gets over. In between the Lord will rule the world with a rod of Iron and the enemy Satan who sows rebellious seeds in the heart of unsaved men to cause rebellion against God and the work of His Kingdom will be imprisoned and kept in prison for a thousand years time (Matt 13:38-40, 41-42; Rev 2:27; 19:15; Psa 2:8-9;110:6; Isa 2:4).




Is Gog The Same Beast Of Revelation?


The leaders of the invasion in both the Gog-Magog and Armageddon battle are the same. Gog is the prince and ruler of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal (Ezek 38:3). The Antichrist is clearly described in the Book of Daniel as “the people of the prince who is to come” (Dan 9:26). Also He is clearly described as the horn before which three horns fell (Dan 7:20). The meaning of the preceding verse is “….He [i.e. the Antichrist] shall be different from the first ones, and shall subdue three kings.” (Dan 7:24). In other words the prince of Gog who is the Antichrist will bring the three kings of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal under his control and will subdue them. Seeing this, the whole world will give their power over to Antichrist to form a one world government with a one world religion intertwined within it (Ezek 38:3; Rev 17:12-13). The invading leader in both Armageddon and Ezek 38-39 is the same beast Antichrist who will have a worldwide control over the whole earth. It is clearly a known fact that the Antichrist who is also called as the prince of Gog will be possessed by Satan the Dragon (Rev 13:2). This is the reason the verse in Ezekiel 38:10 says, “thoughts will arise in your mind…you will make evil plans”. In other words, just like Satan entered Judas to fulfill the purpose of God, so will be at the end time with Antichrist (John 13:27). Satan will fulfill all his wishes through the body of Antichrist before he will be locked in prison for a Millennium (Rev 20:2).

I am not confusing anybody, in fact, you did not understand and were confused about it because you did not grasp the fact that it was two separate wars and I was speaking about the resemblance and exact match of Armageddon to Ezek 38-39 rather than to Rev 20 second war of Gog-Magog which is unique in every way as you also say, it is the end of the story of humankind on this present earth, and only the new creations in the new heavens and new earth will then continue under the goodness of God and His Presence among them forever and ever after this second and final war of Gog-Magog of Rev 20 on this present old earth (Rev 21-22).




Seven Months Of Burying Dead Bodies And Seven Years Of Burning Wood As Fuel?


Ezekiel says that the nation of Israel will be seven months burying the dead and seven years burning the weapons. This obviously can't happen during the Tribulation time within the 2nd half of the Daniel's Seventieth Week in which everything else like the Two Prophets prophesying wrath on Antichrist and his ways that will be going on. Weapons of war will only be burned after Christ returns and once the nation of Israel lives in perfect peace under the Prince of Peace Jesus Christ. Once only when no Antichrist and False Prophet is in physical sight and Satan no longer is in the spiritual sight of humans, the weapons of war are no longer necessary. And that will only happen after the start of the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ over all the earth from Jerusalem the city of God. And, it won't just be Israel that burns weapons of war. In the beginning of the Lord's Millennial Reign we will see the fulfillment of Micah 4:3, "And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." In other words, all the nations of the world including Israel will be implementing the most massive and permanent disarmament program in history.

Ezekiel 39:9 describes Israel burning the invading enemies weapons for seven years. Because the Gog-Magog battle will take place after the end of the Great Tribulation, the enemies weapons will be burned for 7 years in to the Millennium. At that time Messiah of Israel would be present in Israel to protect it and to judge the nations of the world. This is the reason the nation of Israel will not want to take and store the weapons as booty or spoils for future wars, but instead would choose to burn the weapons completely. This also reveals their confidence in their real Messiah Jesus Christ who will have by then saved them from the terrible and brutal clutches of the Assyrian Antichrist in this final war of Armageddon.

The next thing is, even though Jesus will provide to everyone’s needs, the curse will be partially lifted (Is 11:6-10), and the earth also will be reformatted by earth quakes (Rev 6:12-14; 16:17-21), still as the Bible says Jesus will come and only help to raise up the tabernacle of David, repair its damages, raise up its ruins and rebuild it as in the days of old (Amos 9:11; Acts 15:16-17). It took many years as the history says to rebuild the tabernacle of David which was fully completed by Solomon (John 2:20; 1 Chron 16:1; 17:5-14; 29:1-9; 2 Chron 6:5-11; 7:1-11). Jesus did not promise a new temple for the Millennium pre-built in heaven, lowered and refitted on earth like the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven (Rev 21:1-3). In this way burning the weapons in the millennium is part of the work to rebuild the Millennium temple to establish peace and security through the surviving saints of the Great Tribulation who will be in their natural bodies. These saints who will have survived and have come out of Great Tribulation will be allowed to live on earth in the Millennium to procreate and multiply the earth. Thus because the Messiah will rule the world with an iron rod, all the nations of the earth and Israel especially will destroy all their weapons completely trusting the supernatural power of the Messiah to protect them from any harm (Joel 3:16). This massive de-weaponisation program around the world will be implemented without fail by the Messiah (Isaiah 2:2-4; Rev 19:15; Isaiah 11:4).




Were Only Some Nations Involved In Ezek 38-39 And Whole World In Armageddon? 


When you say, 'Ezekiel war says specifically the nations Involved, Armageddon will be the whole world per se?', to that my answer is:

The invaders in to the nation of Israel in both the Armageddon and Gog-Magog battle are a global coalition of nations with their one world powerful charismatic leader Antichrist leading them (Ezek 38:11; Rev 19:19). Not realizing that the Messiah of Israel will come to defend the people who fear Him in Israel, the kings of the earth will come to completely destroy the nation of Israel. The army under Antichrist will openly declare a war cry against the Messiah of Israel to come and fight to rescue the nation of Israel, if its Messiah is truly God Almighty (Rev 13:4, 6-10; 17:12-14; 19:19; 6:15-17). Thus unexpectedly they will see Christ and His armies of saints from heaven supernaturally come and fight for Israel (Rev 19:11-21). As a result of this final war, the nation of Israel will be protected from annihilation. Jerusalem will become the capital city of its Messiah Jesus Christ. From the city of Jerusalem the Great King and the Messiah of the world will rule the nations for a Millennium (Matt 5:35). Praise the Lord!

We see only the Antichrist and false prophet being cast alive in judgment "in to the lake of fire burning with brimstone", then those armies that followed him and the people who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image were struck with "the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him [i.e. Jesus Christ] who sat on the horse", which will make them die in the battle of Armageddon with 5th and 6th degree fire burns (Rev 19:20-21). Then the unsaved people in all the world will be separated by Jesus Christ during the 'Judgment of nations' as goats and will be judged by their works to be sent to everlasting punishment to be condemned eternally on the day of White Throne Judgment of Christ (Matt 25:31-46; Rev 20:11-15). Those who enter physically on earth from all the nations around the world in to the Millennial rule of Jesus Christ over the world will only be believers who are represented as sheep's.

We see a lot of nations who had power to resist the force of Antichrist by joining in with an opposite coalition of most likely United States and its allies, not joining the camp of Antichrist coalition, some initially and some even to the end against him at the time of the end (Dan 11:44, 45), Kings of the east will only support his cause at the very end, that is, only during Armageddon as they too will become rebellious against heaven's control over them as sovereign nations and will want to sever God's Kingdom control over their individual national status to join the global coalition (Rev 16:12-16). So Ezekiel war is not a list of all the nations assembled as a global army but rather the main list of nations that will support the cause of Antichrist voluntarily initially, and along with them "many peoples" (Ezek 38:9) will join some by force of submission and others by deceit of Antichrist as the only alternative to a global cause of safety and peace (Ezek 38:38:1-9; 1 Thess 5:3-6; 2 Thess 2:8-12). We know that a traditional Christian north of Russia which has in the past has a bent towards communism, and a godless and a pantheistic east of China and India will trouble him because of holding great prosperity and power during the time of the end. Only before Armageddon they will all join hands together for a global cause of 'safety and security' to stop aliens from taking over the earth according to their godless explanation to the world which will be deceived by such talk.

Thus the Russian invasion is not separate from Ezekiel's 38-39 war but rather they are one and the same, and does not have to take place before Antichrist comes on the world stage, but rather the (EU) European Union can become the Last World Empire after which the powerful nations of the world will join the bandwagon and march towards the first Gog-Magog war of Armageddon against Christ and his armies of heaven.


Much Blessings....




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